A Sister’s Pre-Marriage Point of View; In Response to Muslim Matters.
|
I’m actually very hesitant in posting this, but I figured It’d be my post about marriage, before I write about why people should stop writing about marriage, because it’s kind of annoying now. That post will be so much better than this! 
While this isn’t a rebuttal of Br. Haytham’s post there are some things from the POV of a sister that I feel
brothers just are clueless about. In fact, I think brothers are usually about 90% clueless when it comes to the female brain, but let’s take baby steps in helping them on their roadmap to marriage:
Let’s be frank here — we as a Western society are picky when it comes to our marriage choices. Things aren’t as simplified as they used to be. Whether that’s good or bad is not the issue.
In keeping with the spirit of Br. Haytham’s post, I’ll keep to the outline he’s listed for the pre-marriage issues: Parents of prospective husband, prospective husband and our own insecurities:
Our view about parents of prospective husband:
Guys are terrified of fathers. Women are equally terrified of mothers. Let’s face it — some of the biggest problems after marriage originate between the wife and her mother-in-law.
Before we meet your mom, we make dua’a that she is very nice and not too over-bearing with high expectations of us when it comes to cooking and babying her son; and not to mention we hope she isn’t too critical of our looks.
And unless we are pretty traditional from certain backgrounds, there is no way we want to live with the brother’s family after marriage; especially if we grew up in the West.
It’s not about us being afflicted with this whole “Western Aggressive Girl Syndrome.” It’s just the reality of how we feel. Now that’s not to say that a sister will not be respectful of a guy’s mom. Truly, if a sister fears Allah, she will be very, very respectful to your mother regardless of whether or not she disagrees with her.
But that doesn’t take away from the fact that we are terrified before we meet your mothers. And generally, we tend to have no issues with the father at all.
Our view about the prospective husband:
Many of br. Haytham’s qualities he listed that brothers look for in sisters can go for both ways. The points I’m about to list are not in order of importance, but figured i’d offer a little different side when it comes to the sister’s POV:
1– Sisters look for good looks too. Although we are more flexible when it comes to looks, we definitely have to be attracted to the guy. We don’t necessarily need supermodels. Just follow the sunnah, and naturally iman and noor on your face will make you more attractive.
2—Maturity- we want you to be charismatic, not stiff, but mature. Show us you’re ready mentally to get married and take care of a family.
3—Religiosity—much like guys want their future wife to have the eagerness to learn the deen, it’s even more stressed on our side. Most sisters want a brother who is on the same level deen wise or above. We want someone we can look up to, because this encourages us to be better.
4—Dressed Islamically- Yes, that’s right — religious girls like beards! Contrary to popular belief, we are not scared of them, and in fact that’s one of our main concerns up front. I guess it’s the leeway in knowing and finding out about the brother’s religious mentality.
On a side note, one of my personal, biggest pet peeves is when a brother trims his beard really short for unacceptable reasons.
I always hear of cases from sisters where a brother says he shaves his beard for fear of airport security. And if you ask him what opinion he follows, and he usually responds that it’s haram to trim it or to trim anything more than fist length.
But even worse than that is when he shaves it because his mom doesn’t like the way it looks on him. Brothers, this is your hijab. If you follow an opinion, be firm on it. It shows weakness to us when you do this, especially because we as sisters wearing full hijab have much bigger pressure than you do when it comes to outside scrutiny of our attire.
5—Someone to find comfort in—we definitely want not only a husband, but a best friend. We want someone to console in and that will not only listen to us when we are down, but to tell us words that will make us feel better. Analyze the situation with us, and give us “words of wisdom.”
Usually, this is a “gamble” because we really can’t tell if this quality exists in a brother before marriage.
6—Knows how to treat his wife kindly and with respect—there’s a difference between being the man of the house, and being the prison guard. We don’t want the “What I say goes!” type of brother.
7—Has to be more intelligent than us to a certain degree—we don’t want to feel smarter than our husbands. You must be able to hold an intelligent conversation and know about things we don’t know anything about.
8—Too sensitive is too feminine—some girls like sensitive guys. But some guys take that too far. Believe it or not there are a lot of guys out there that love to spill what they are “feeling” all the time. We want someone masculine, but not afraid to say what’s wrong if they are upset. Just don’t cry me a river every time.
9—Jealousy- we definitely want the same from brothers as they want from sisters. We want to feel like we are special and protected. But don’t be too over-bearing in your jealousy. I know sisters whose husbands are so jealous they hardly let their wives go out of the house, even if it’s with other good sisters. Again, be a husband, not a prison guard.
10– Demeanor- the way your carry yourself is what makes you attractive. Carry yourself with respect and confidence. We view confidence as being very attractive. Seriously, a guy doesn’t have to be that physically attractive, but if he is confident it really can make a guy stand tall in our eyes. Finally, be respectful but also be fun.
Oh, and definitely a #11
11- Chivalry is not dead! Girls love chivalry. We want our husbands to open doors for us, surprise us every once in a while, give us their jackets when we’re cold. This is something almost ever girl loves.
Finally, our view of our own insecurities:
We are very self-conscious about our looks even the girls that know they are somewhat attractive. We are scared that when the brother sees us for the first time, and if he’s not interested we always think it’s about our looks- even if he states other reasons.
After all, we definitely want the one person who will see us without our niqaab or hijab to be the one who thinks we are the most beautiful.
A little secret—most girls don’t know how to cook in the beginning of marriage. But we learn. We’re also insecure about that. We know we can’t match your mom’s cooking yet, but give us time.
Wallahu alem.
-Egyptian Gumbo
Disclaimer: This post is in no way, shape or form an advertisement for marriage. I’m simply responding the post on Muslim Matters because I don’t see anything previously out there complied into one post about this issue from a sister’s POV. This is not to say that all these things are what I personally see or feel, but I believe it represents a lot of sisters as a whole. I know there will be some sisters that disagree. And again, these are general, not necessarily what I think or don’t think.
mofw Says: 22.11.08 at 4:20 am
You’re just making it worse.
shirien Says: 22.11.08 at 4:26 am
I know
I honestly have been wanting to write a post about the bloggers who write about marriage to get readers, and how they should stop.
But then i found myself sincerely wanting to write this post.
It’s so lame. It goes against everything that’s made me cringe in the past year… oh well
Raheel #2 Says: 22.11.08 at 4:26 am
This is an interesting post.
Interesting in the sense that girls and guys actually look for the same things when it comes down to it.
Of course there’s the gender specific stuff like chivalry.
Also some of the things you mentioned won’t really take effect until after the marriage has gone through and you are officially husband and wife.
But I agree with your list.
Good post
Ahmed Says: 22.11.08 at 4:27 am
I liked this post…Many truths
Alima Says: 22.11.08 at 5:11 am
assalaamu ‘alaykum,
Shirien!!!
Breaking News!!!
You wrote a post on marriage. lol.
Alhamdulillah, I have to say, granted, you wrote it well. I actually agreed with all your points. Ajeeb.
PS. Missed ya sis!
shirien Says: 22.11.08 at 5:25 am
I honestly think all the married people out there roll their eyes at things like this lol. I don’t blame them.
I think we’re a little too fantasy world when it comes to our expectations.
Sure these things we may look for, but honestly what bothers me is when i hear of a brother or sister rejecting the other because they dont have everything they want.
Be prepared to stay single a looong time, because you’ll NEVER find perfection.
Wallahu alem.
yes, it’s true that a lot of what i wrote above can only be figured out after marriage
my apologies maybe i got carried away and didnt look closely at my list.
samir Says: 22.11.08 at 5:52 am
mashAllah this was very informative. It seems a vast majority of marriage articles are written from a guy’s point of view.
umm sakeenah Says: 22.11.08 at 6:00 am
“I honestly think all the married people out there roll their eyes at things like this lol. I don’t blame them.”
Sr. Shirien, I couldn’t agree more. Though I do remember my times of going through proposal after proposal, but after marriage, there’s a whole other set of problems to deal with and that’s where the real fun begins
Jazaki Allahu Khayr for your mature response and I’m looking forward to the day when you’ll be writing about how marriage posts are get annoying!
haytham Says: 22.11.08 at 8:48 am
The prophet :saw: said: The woman is married for for reason…… do you remember the first one?!! Just wondering!!
Come on now…
O in case people didnt know… the hadith is:
Women are married for for reasons, her beauty, her wealth, her linage , and deen… (and whoever win) the girl with deen has won a great deal….
zfnd Says: 22.11.08 at 8:57 am
Astutely written post.
“We’re so picky, that sometimes we are the superficial ones– not them”
Well observed.
I can’t wait for the next post, although I foresee a trend of everyone writing about ‘why we need to stop writing about marriage,’ which, indirectly is fueling the fire…
Sister Says: 22.11.08 at 10:05 am
Lol! I actually laughed out loud on the colored contacts issue!!! Still am…
Sister Says: 22.11.08 at 10:14 am
ohh…umm shirien…I have a good match for you (ia). In all seriousness this thought randomly popped into my mind just today! You should be kind of shy/nervous because last time I had a similar random thought about some brother and some sister on some forums…about one yr later they actually got married! Subhanallah I was amazed! Let’s see if this one works out.
Wanna know?
Sister Says: 22.11.08 at 10:16 am
I guess my ESP is at works…lol
shirien Says: 22.11.08 at 11:09 am
does no one else think the wedding cake topping is awesome? lol
Melody, Haytham, the superficialness goes both ways. Yes , one of the reasons a brother marries a girl is because of her beauty, but they are superficial in their image of beauty.
Beauty is in a eye of the beholder. So when a guy says I have to marry a girl with colored eyes, that says superficial to me, actually it says picky!
“Astutely written post.”
You thought my post was shrewd? in what way?
“ohh…umm shirien…I have a good match for you (ia). In all seriousness this thought randomly popped into my mind just today!”
i’m not a fan of randomness.
I mean.. I don’t even know who’s writing this comment…so that’s way too random for me.
Sister Says: 22.11.08 at 11:24 am
well you don’t have to know and you won’t
… How would it help anyways? The only thing that matters is I’m a Muslimah who is not lying.
I was acquainted with the other bro and sis only thru the internet. I knew that they knew each other atleast on the internet, and also possibly in real life. Reading their posts made me feel that the were sort of similar. The thought of their marriage was sort of random. My analysis of them and perhaps their online interaction wasn’t.
I know that much about you and that bro.
shirien Says: 22.11.08 at 11:29 am
do I know you, outside of this one post?
Have I ever talked to you?
in any case if you dont want to say who you are here, you’re welcome to email me at the email address on the “about” page.
see, I think i have a problem, because although I dont like hearing about marriage. I love to hear about terrible marriage proposals to add to my previous post.. is that messed up? lol
I just find them entertaining.
Amatullah Says: 22.11.08 at 11:31 am
Dude, I was just going to comment to tell you how awesome that pic is! That’s all I have to say
AlBaraa Says: 22.11.08 at 11:32 am
This is one of the most entertaining articles and comments on this blog
– Thumbs up on StumbleUpon
shirien Says: 22.11.08 at 11:33 am
haha. Do any of the girls disagree with the points i’ve listed above? and if so what?
or do you agree?
Sister Says: 22.11.08 at 11:40 am
We don’t know each other. So emailing you wouldn’t help. However, I occasionally read your blog and find it entertaining, interesting and inspiring.
I only comment rarely. I guesss this was the 2nd time.
I think a lot of people on your blog, if not all, dont know me so there is not point in saying.
In any case hon, you are the one who wrote on the topic (marriage), so what’s there about not liking it.
Ah…there goes one more similarity. lol
shirien Says: 22.11.08 at 11:48 am
AlBaraa Says:
November 22nd, 2008 at 11:32 am e
This is one of the most entertaining articles and comments on this blog
– Thumbs up on StumbleUpon
Oh no way. “ABC Cookie Monster” tops them all. There’s nothing like a cute kid dissing kermit the frog.
“Sister,” lol barak Allahu feeki. your email address is abcd@efg.com? lol very nice.
I ALMOST can guess who you would say… because other people have already hinted at the same thing before… wallahu alem. There’s no way I’m going to concur if it’s the same person or not on my blog.
And I usually always leave it at.. “no randomness allowed.”
And no, lol that’s not being picky.. that’s just being smart
Sister Says: 22.11.08 at 11:51 am
oh no! your exposed my email address. That’s not nice. Let’s leave it at “Email exposure un-appreaciated!”
Muslim Creed Says: 22.11.08 at 12:09 pm
The problem is many times brothers & sisters are just “wishing” and not giving any sincere effort. Sometimes brothers ask me if I know any single sisters and then after checking further, I find that his mom still needs to tell him to brush his teeth in the morning. Similarly there are sisters out there who think everything is a game…and no these are not 13/14 yr olds!
And more than that, people simply do not know what they want or what is best for them in terms of Deen. – I know this will probably tick people off, but wallah I speak from experience and having dealt with community problems.
So we say what we say all the time – review the basic fundamentals of your Deen and sincerely look for a partner and InshAllah all will come together.
But before that, don’t waste other people’s time who truly may be sincere…it simply isn’t fair on them.
May Allah help all single brothers & sisters…who love Him more than anything else; and show that love by actually following the Sunnah…find eachother and start an Islamic family. Ameen.
Nikki Says: 22.11.08 at 12:34 pm
Well written sis, maa shaa’ Allaah.
hk Says: 22.11.08 at 1:06 pm
ha that cake figurine-thing would be perfect for a few chicas i know – where can i get it?!
#7 – i don’t agree. everyone’s good at something and will be better than anyone else (including their spouse) at it – no one should feel threatened by that, it’ll just mean smart kids all around! inshaAllah
i’m surprised “similar interests” didn’t make either lists… it’s one of the first things i hear in regards to preferences.
Ibn Fellah Says: 22.11.08 at 6:42 pm
I’m going to be the devil’s advocate here, and complicate things a little more:
Regarding point no. 9 “Jealousy”: Brothers don’t have to let their wives out of the houses at all? A wife by default “should” stay at home. If you open any classical fiqh manual, men are allowed to disallow their wives from stepping outside the home unless it is dire necessity or is for seeking Islamic knowledge.
Yasmine Gharib Says: 23.11.08 at 12:28 am
@ Sister! Back off! Shirien is mine!!!
“…Just don’t cry me a river every time…”
lol!!! sosososos true….that made me laugh for a good five mins….like really….
“I honestly think all the married people out there roll their eyes at things like this lol. I don’t blame them….”
lol i rolled my eyes wen i saw his and rolled my eyes even more wen i saw yours…stop writing guys…my eyes might just roll off once!
-Yasmine
Melody Says: 23.11.08 at 12:42 am
About the picture … I saw it on TBS … life lessons lol
shirien Says: 23.11.08 at 12:44 am
lol Yasmine you crack me up. Don’t worry you’ll always be my na3jah. Yasmine, you’re eyes must secretly be marbles. no one’s eyes roll that much :-/ hehe
Ibn Fellah, now I dont know if you are married or not, but that comment should be on another post called “how to stay single the rest of your life.”
and just so that people know, girls are majorly jealous just like guys are.
Girls hate girls.
but not really… i dont know if that made sense but i’m sure all the sisters know what i’m talking about, haha.
Nikki, umm sakeenah, samir, ahmed, alima, raheel, amatullah, jazakum Allahu khairan
HK, definitely similar interests are a big one! but you never know, opposites attract too.
I dont know , i really feel that girls especially want to feel like they dont have to dumb some things down for their husbands. That’s why I definitely think that we generally look for someone who can hold an intellegent conversation. I’m not talking in terms of degrees I mean if a sister has a PHD and the brother has his Masters, i dont think that’s really an issue.
but when it comes to everyday conversation and you just feel that the brother is not as smart as you, i think most girls would be very turned away from that. wallahu alem.
Alima Says: 23.11.08 at 3:08 am
Oh Shiren…
Look what you’ve done… You fueled the fire, subhan’Allaah. lol.
lol. This post is extreamly funny, as everyones wearing a mask… No ones going to say this, so I will. Everyone/unn married brethren…
Just get married people
Fear Allah and put your trust in Him ‘azza wa jall and look for someone in the halal way and settle down and then you can laugh at these posts.
Sister Says: 23.11.08 at 3:10 am
@ Yasmine…I don’t want Shirien as I myself am as my sn says, A Sister!
Btw…what’s na3jah?
shirien Says: 23.11.08 at 3:26 am
sister, you dont want me?
lol i feel rejected… is it my looks? Haha.
Na3jah= ewe (lamb) http://attachments.techguy.org/attachments/85612d1156132866/img_1582-ewe.jpg
It’s in surat Saad.
I was reciting to Yasmine one night what I had memorized, and she wondered what a ewe was, as she thought it was an ostrich.. I told her it was a ewe and she had no idea what it was so we literally spent 15 min talking about “Na3jah” lol.
good times, good times. So now we are each other’s na3aajih. (I guess that would be the plural).
Alima, lol I seriously am not putting up a mask, I dont see why you would say that. Did I say anything fake?
Alima Says: 23.11.08 at 3:33 am
lol. Oh no Shiren, subhan’Allaah. You didn’t say anything fake. Alhamdulillah.
lol, this happens when you do it via text.
I’ll explain via email…
anon Says: 23.11.08 at 3:47 am
I scored 3/11. Damn.
Sister Says: 23.11.08 at 5:31 am
lol @ your looks.
awww…that lamb is so cute n bushy! Looks like its wearing a hijab and jilbab.
Sister Says: 23.11.08 at 9:41 am
Isn’t pickiness in spouse selection a personal trait rather than a societal one?
I’m sure one would find a great number of picky persons in many different societies.
One can’t really claim that the western society is picky unless one knows what is going around the rest of the world.
But really, what made you think that the western society as a whole is picky?
shirien Says: 23.11.08 at 9:59 am
because many of us are “hyphenated american muslims”
We’re Egyptian-Americans, Indian-Americans, etc.
We know what the other culture is like. And I think at least amongst those two cultures people would agree that picking a spouse is less complicated than here.
wallahu alem.
farah Says: 23.11.08 at 1:21 pm
I Love It!!!! =)
Martial Artist Says: 24.11.08 at 2:42 am
Ibn Fellah, put urself in a woman’s shoes n then comment. jsut envision urself staying in the home 24/7 all ur married life. wouldnt u feel bored n depressed? alot of uneducated women from the older generations (the ones who stay within the house)have nothing to do except GOSSIP. they just visit eachother n have gossiping sessions coz they dnt know better. a woman should have an active lifestyle (n atleast some hobby that doesnt include cooking n raising children)- she should be allowed to go out (within halal boundaries ofcourse)..otherwise wot else is there to do at home(relaxing/entertainment wise)?TV, gossip? theres only so much surfing the net/reading u cn take!wot if u had a sporty personality or loved to be outdoors? or wot if reading books or watching tv or being on the computer all day just didnt appeal to u?…neway i think im rambling now..but i hope u gt ma point…alot of ppl say stuff but they dnt eva think of themselves being in the same position of the ppl hu they comment-ing abwt. all of the above is my own opinion so dnt start attacking me if u disagree!
SR Says: 24.11.08 at 5:08 am
Point well made, Martial Artist.
Everybody (men and women) should imagine themselves in the other person’s place, before making decisions about their freedoms – which in this conversation is, bizarrely, the freedom to breathe (fresh air)
Sister Says: 24.11.08 at 7:27 am
“haha. Do any of the girls disagree with the points i’ve listed above? and if so what?”
Though I’m not remotely familiar with what goes on in Egypt and among Egyptian-Americans, I am inclined to disagree with what you have said about Indians. However, my disagreement is sort of beside the point.
The real issue is that the western society has been stamped as being picky based on a loose comparison with 2 out of 100′S (if not 1000′S) of societies in the world, namely-Egyptian and Indian. I find that outrageous!
Hmm…I wonder if pickiness in spouse selection is a real discussion issue affecting only the west or do westerners, specifically western Muslims simply like to set themselves apart from the rest of the world for some blatantly casual ‘issue’ and have endless discussions?
PS: Hope you don’t mind my double hyphenated ‘American/Western’ pickiness. Let’s have some halal fun here!
shirien Says: 24.11.08 at 7:40 am
considering most of my friends are indian/pakistani, I’m sure they would agree that marriage there is a lot more simplified in terms of choices, because family generally back home has a lot to do with who you get married to.. am I right or wrong? Sometimes you’ll see that a girl or guy will sacrifice some of the qualities they are looking for to please their families, no?
what you find outrageous, I don’t. Find me a culture who is more mentally affected by media and standards of beauty and what is attractive and what is not, more than the West.
And especially the West where their whole culture revolves around Hollywood non-sense, people grow up watching love stories on TV, Movies, etc. and we think “why cant I find something like that”
Whether someone agrees with that analysis or not, I would say that these things are deeply studied in Mass Communication and there is no doubt that media has a huge role in perception of the world, desires, persuasion, and culture standards as a whole.
Wallahu alem.
Sister Says: 24.11.08 at 8:37 am
Is it being implied that the greater the family involvement the more simplified the situation would be? If it is, then the implication is mistaken. Family members can often acts like they are the ones getting married.
I would probably concur with you with regards to the influence of media on western beauty standards. Perhaps you are also aware that people have beauty standards in India/Pakistan as well. People do obsess about them a lot to say the least.
Even if were to say that the effect of media is greater among westerners (which probably is)… it should be realized that beauty is not the only trait that people get picky about (others include, Education, character preferences like superficiality
, religiosity, etc.). I don’t know if ‘the effect of media’ can be used as an explanation for those other preferences.
If Americans watch Hollywood, then Indians watch Bollywood…and when you have the entire family involved, it’s not just you looking for a Bollywood archetype, chances are it’s also the family members who are involved!
Can it get any pickier?
Is it fair to label the westerners as picky based on this loose comparison with the Indians/Pakis, or vice versa?
Sister Says: 24.11.08 at 8:39 am
Is there any real issue to discuss?
shirien Says: 24.11.08 at 8:39 am
I’m sensing some sass.
I’ll respond later inshaAllah.
Sister Says: 24.11.08 at 8:48 am
Being the hyphenated-American that you are, I hope you are not going to the media to find an answer!
shirien Says: 24.11.08 at 9:08 am
Alright Ms. Sassy Pants, I guess I’ll respond now.
Not only do I think we are more picky as a culture in terms of our marriage choices, but we also have it more complicated.
Go ask Sheikh Yasir Birjas who started his own project “iwannagetmarried.com” just to help all of those people who have marriage issues get married!
Why do you think the lectures and posts about marriage get the most attention? Because there are so many issues, either because of our standards, our parents standards, and everything in between!
Subhanallah if you look at Sheikh Yaser’s blog “themarriagerevolution.com” just his post about “Are you ready for marriage?” got over 300+ comments alone.
And then someone would say that Western Society is not picky or more complicated then other societies in terms of marriage?
(and yes, I DID get that from the media.)
Some sisters and I run a youth Halaqa at our masjid on Friday nights, and you know what they always want to get advice on is? Marriage.
And yes, I have no problem saying I’m a hyphenated-American. What’s there to mock about that statement anyway?
you’re argument in saying that beauty isnt the only thing people are picky about really just escalates my argument.
Education, in most other countries the extent to which education really makes or breaks a deal, is when we’re talking social classes. In the West, we’ve complicated it much more. we based it on Masters, PHDs, M.D.s etc. Whether the girl is more educated then the guy, etc.
Religiosity, is perhaps the only thing that I would say is not looked down up if we’re picky about that.
in fact, I’m not even necessarily saying that being picky about certain things is horrible. I’m just saying that we as a society ARE more picky than others. Whether that’s good or bad isnt the issue.
If you need more substance, i’d be happy to turn to the MEDIA for you, as I see nothing wrong in arguments holding some actual weight.
Sister Says: 25.11.08 at 5:37 am
Alright, although you said this later on in your comment I will respond to this first.
“And yes, I have no problem saying I’m a hyphenated-American. What’s there to mock about that statement anyway?”
I never implied that you should have a problem calling yourself a hyphenated-American. Never mocked. I actually have issues with people who mock others. I used that term in my joke because I thought it was kind of cool.
“Go ask Sheikh Yasir Birjas who started his own project “iwannagetmarried.com” just to help all of those people who have marriage issues get married!”
Though I admit that Sheikh Yasir Birjas got experience, I would believe ANYONE if they bring the right kind of evidence and not simply give their opinion.
“Why do you think the lectures and posts about marriage get the most attention?”
Why do you think topics such as Jinns get a lot of attention (as claimed by some popular Islamic speakers)?
“Because there are so many issues, either because of our standards, our parents standards…”
That’s only one possibility.
“….and everything in between!”
Examples? I cant think of any!
“Subhanallah if you look at Sheikh Yaser’s blog “themarriagerevolution.com” just his post about “Are you ready for marriage?” got over 300+ comments alone.”
Do you think ALL the people posting those comments have REAL-LIFE pressing concerns?
Perhaps, it could also be that some of them simply LIKE talking about marriage just like they like talking about jinns and other spooky stuff. I suppose most of the people haven’t met a jinn in their life nor plan on meeting one but they simply like to talk about it because it’s INTERESTING and you get to let your imagination go WILD and let your mind do intellectual GYMNASTICS and puke the resultant nausea-tic tantrum somewhere!
One thing I often hear is Americans are very opinionated and like to talk a lot!
“And then someone would say that Western Society is not picky or more complicated then other societies in terms of marriage?”
Perhaps they’re right!
“Some sisters and I run a youth Halaqa at our masjid on Friday nights, and you know what they always want to get advice on is? Marriage.”
Given their age-group, that’s a good topic to get advice on. But if that’s the ONLY thing ALL of them ALWAYS ask about, then may-be the group is suffering from some sort of obsession or phobias and require professional attention.
“Education, in most other countries the extent to which education really makes or breaks a deal, is when we’re talking social classes.”
What’s the source of this statement?
“ In the West, we’ve complicated it much more. we based it on Masters, PHDs, M.D.s etc. Whether the girl is more educated then the guy, etc.”
I’m sure there are people elsewhere in the world who are acquiring such degrees and the complication is not simply limited to the western society. Since you have taken the Indian example earlier, let me assure you that India is full of educated people and it doesn’t always have to do with belonging to a certain social class. Why are Indian doctors imported over here? Why is the IT industry full of imported/immigrated Indians? I hear people saying that even some housemaids have college education over there these days.
And Indians are but ONE example!
Infact, I think that the argument is actually weakened by taking the Indians (living in India) as an example. It is only fair to ask the youth and their families living there what’s its like to go spouse-hunting. I have some personal estimates as I have been exposed to the Indian culture, and they are FAR from what you are suggesting.
“in fact, I’m not even necessarily saying that being picky about certain things is horrible.”
And I understand that you are not saying that.
“I’m just saying that we as a society ARE more picky than others.”
You can say whatever you want, and I can say whatever I want. In the end in order to establish the significance of a discussion issue, we need some hardcore evidence (A good example would be a research a cross-cultural study doing a meta-analysis of the level of pickiness across different cultures).
“If you need more substance, i’d be happy to turn to the MEDIA for you, as I see nothing wrong in arguments holding some actual weight”
In my earlier comment, when I said media I meant the TV. But yeah, I don’t have problem with you turning to the media as it is of different kinds. Just remember that you turn to the right one though, like books and research articles—getting the info from the original source is always better than getting it from the subsequent one.
Shirien, in the end, I don’t have problem with most of the stuff you have written in your original post. My only issue was the unsupported claim that pickiness in spouse selection as a trait of the western society. I just find it weird when some western Muslims (popular ’scholars’ included), set western Muslims apart from the Muslims of the rest of the world based on un-grounded ‘differences’. I think that just instills a sense of psychological separation with Muslims living in other countries and promotes narcissism.
shirien Says: 25.11.08 at 6:08 am
That’s way too long of a reply can you summarize in a paragraph?
Sister Says: 25.11.08 at 7:00 am
lol…almost half of it is actually quoted from your comment.
shirien Says: 25.11.08 at 7:03 am
I don’t see a need to respond. it wont go anywhere.
Sister Says: 25.11.08 at 7:27 am
Agreed. I dont see any need for you to respond.
Btw…Is it just Shirien, or do any of the sisters out there think that my comments are sassy?
I don’t intend or see any sassiness.
Btw..shirien…there are 3 definitions of sassy on dictionary.com. Which one are you suggesting?
hk Says: 25.11.08 at 8:17 am
I usually skim comments (especially long ones and b/c I love coming back to Shirien’s blog
), or scroll down to the comment box immediately to leave my thoughts on the post itself, but Sister raises some interesting points. I don’t think Shirien actually meant to talk in “us vs. them” terms when comparing how all things related to marriage are handled in eastern and western Muslim societies. The reality of the matter is that there ARE differences. Let’s not get hung up on the technicalities, as it is what it is and speaking in a “how things are done here vs there” is maybe the only way of expressing our thoughts on it. Allahu’alam. That aside, my question is: did anyone bother to ask what exactly we’re measuring when we talk about “pickiness”? Is it about who has the longer list of detailed preferences or who stays unmarried longer? If the former, how many of those qualities would rank in the top “most sought after” traits – something you can only state as such if you know the ins and outs of that culture; so, is pickiness then subjective in that respect? You cannot collect data until you know what you’re measuring. Both factors, of course, are scenarios common to the Muslim world over, and we pray that Allah makes it easy for the Muslims.
Maybe every culture thinks they’re the pickiest when it comes to marriage
That Muslims living in close-knit communities, with masajids on about every other block, it’s easy to see how a good portion of that society would probably have a greater level of support in getting married off than those without. Maybe that makes those of us living in communities where a significant number of Muslim youths/young-professionals are unmarried think that maybe “those people” have it easy b/c they’re not that particular about who they end up with (a false assumption, no doubt – i need only point you to my cousins from “back home” 
i’ve never met a pickier lot!).
As for contributers of “pickiness”, based on an isolated case I’m gonna go out on a limb and say that media and education (anywhere in the world – be it india or the u.s.) seem to be a (not *THE*) major influence on shaping people’s views about love, marriage, and the soul-mate factor. That’s not to say the more educated = the pickier, or the more exposed to media = pickier. But just that being exposed to these two variables contribute to our pickiness in some fashion (to say nothing of upbringing itself, but that’s another topic
)
I’m basing this on two different times i went to visit pakistan (disclaimer: I know this doesn’t really substantiate for concrete-data (most isolated cases don’t), but i think you would find it interesting yourself): the first, when there was little educational opportunities available to women and virtually no TV sets airing bollywood in every household. The second time: the exact opposite ad subhanAllahhhh the changes were dramatic – not just in imitating the latest fashions of bollywood actors/actresses, but general viewpoints regarding relationships and family/domestic life as well; in this setting it was no longer “i’ll marry whomever ami, abu, or the khandaan say i will” (predominant view during first trip) but “will i be happy with this person and does he compliment my personality, my level of passion for the deen, for education?”. This is not to say that men and women had gone from having little or no preferences to very specific qualities that they would like for their partner to have – but just that their preferences had taken a totally different route compared to their parents’ generation. You can tell it’s a huge change b/c of the friction it’s created between the older (parental) generation and this new “hyper-preferential-generation”.
Obviously that’s only one instance in the grand scheme of things, so it doesn’t suffice as much support, but it was an interesting observation that, for the first time, made me realize the impact of the media on much of our views/lifestyle.
Sorry for the lengthy comment… I know they’re not as fun to read as they are to write
Amatullah Says: 25.11.08 at 8:26 am
so…
Just wanted to tell you from my PoV, you’re totally right! Jazakum Allahu khayran for writing it out, I know many of us sisters probably wouldn’t have done it. (I know I wouldn’t be able to do it)
I can’t believe how popular that post is on MM…The way I see it, there’s only SO much you can talk about, sah?? Don’t you get bored of talking about it again and again?? Really it drives me nuts lol.